Mind Surfer MD

Reiki Master Dr. Judith Hong: Through the Fire

• Liz Treynor, MD • Season 3 • Episode 1

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Join us on a captivating journey with the multi-faceted Dr. Judith Hong, who embodies not just one, but several roles; she is a UCSF-trained dermatologist who is also an artist, gymnast, hockey player, dancer, and Reiki master. 

Dr. Hong brings forth how her world transformed after moving to Sonoma County, when the universe introduced her to the energy healing practice of Reiki-- and soon afterwards, when her life changed overnight due to the destructive Tubbs Fire. 

We move beyond the usual medical discussions when Dr. Hong recounts memorable experiences from her practice where Reiki helped her patients heal. One moving story highlights a patient with a lifelong fear of needles undergoing a melanoma excision.  This patient's journey underlines the core philosophy of Reiki - it isn't about the healer, but about allowing patients to access their innate ability to heal themselves.

In this episode, we also touch on placebo-controlled trials, but Reiki is more than just a healing practice—it is a meditative, compassionate, and mindful practice. The healing that happens through Reiki is a natural outcome, not a forced process. 

Dr. Hong encourages all listeners to explore what resonates with them, urging everyone to consider Reiki for self-healing, healing others, and even for the planet.

Please join the discussion at Mind Surfer MD on Facebook!

Speaker 1:

Welcome to Mindsurfer MD. I'm your host, Dr Liz Trainor, and my mission is to normalize discussions about mental health and provide resources to those of us who are riding the waves. So let's dive in.

Speaker 3:

Hi everybody. I am so delighted to have Dr Judith Hong here with us today. She is a board certified dermatologist practicing in Northern California, and she is also an avid artist and a gymnast and a hockey player and a dancer, and she is also a master teacher of Reiki. She's a Reiki master teacher and I'm very excited to explore what Reiki is and how you stumbled upon it and how it can be useful in life for those of us who are struggling with depression or pain or anxiety or many other things. So yeah, so hi how are you?

Speaker 4:

I'm doing well Thank you, liz, for inviting me to your podcast and I'm really nervous but excited to share about my Reiki journey and how it's impacted me and how I love sharing about it because it's helped me so much in my life and continues to, and how maybe this is something that could help others and they may not even realize it. So I'm really excited and I was actually thinking if we could just start with a little meditation and I'll write this and so everyone listening please join along and we can enjoy this together. So we'll start with our hands in what's called gao shou and that's prayer position or hands coming together, and you're going to go ahead and just start to notice your body and notice your breath, just coming back to our bodies, our senses, and just let that breath naturally start to deepen and soft bellies. And let's go ahead and imagine a cord comes from the tip of our tailbone, so an area some might know as the root chakra, and have it go down into the ground and it keeps going down into the earth and it goes down, down, down, down, down down all the way to the core of Mother Earth and there it anchors and wraps around and, as that happens, anything that's dense or not serving you or any stressors just start to naturally drain down this cord and it goes into the Mother Earth to be absorbed and transmuted into love and light. At the same time, there's this earth energy that starts to flow up the cord and into our bodies.

Speaker 4:

Then, at the crown of your head, imagine that it opens up and then there's this beautiful waterfall, brilliant white light, the sparkling, dancing light coming from the cosmos. It flows into our heads and it starts to just spread into every part of our body. It goes down our head or neck, into our shoulders, all the way down to the tips of the fingers, it goes down our chest, our abdomen, into the pelvis, into both hips and it goes all the way down to the tips of our toes. This brilliant light is just saturating every cell in our body and every space in between. And as you breathe in, you really feel this earth and cosmic energy coming in.

Speaker 4:

And as you breathe out, imagine it expands out every surface of your body 360 degrees like a fine mist. So we're just breathing it in and as we breathe out, it just expands and we can start to use our imagination. And since there's no limits to our imagination. You can start to see this mist of energy expanding out further and further. So maybe it starts with filling up whatever room you're in, maybe expands to your city, and then you can expand it out to your whole country, and then next we can even expand it to cover our entire planet so that every being living or inanimate can receive this, and then you can let it continue out to infinity into the universe.

Speaker 4:

So we're breathing it in and as it expands it just goes out forever, and then we're going to slowly start to bring it back in. So let's bring it back to the earth, let's bring it back to our country, let's bring it back to our city, let's bring it back to our room, and then let's put our hands on our heart and let's bring all that back into our heart. This is women, physicians. We know what it is like to really give and give with a heart, and this is just a little moment where we can let our heart receive. Our very loving, generous, giving hearts can just receive this energy that's all around us. It's the heavens, each other, and I'm just so grateful to be here on the podcast and thank you everyone for listening. We can slowly come back to and you can open your eyes, as they're been closed.

Speaker 3:

And that was beautiful. Thank you so much. I really needed that because I was nervous too.

Speaker 3:

I don't know why, but I just I loved your class. I'm so grateful that I was able to take your Reiki level one class a couple of weeks ago and in fact I tried and it actually really helped. I did some Reiki on myself this morning, Just being present, and I found it very grounding and something that you said in class has become a little bit of a mantra that I am grounded and it's not about me and just letting that energy flow through to calm myself and heal myself, and I'm learning to apply that to help others too. So very early on my journey. But I would love to hear a little bit about how Reiki first came into your life, Judith. If you could tell us a little bit about that.

Speaker 4:

So it's funny one of my teachers says you don't find Reiki, reiki finds you. So Reiki found me and basically I did all my training at UCSF med school residency just very focused. And then we decided to move to Sonoma County. That's where I got my job, which I'm still at. It's a really wonderful office. And Sonoma County I didn't know. I knew it was beautiful as wine country but is actually home to just a lot of interest in spiritual practices, alternative, complimentary Reiki. And so I just started to hear the word Reiki and some of my close friends, actually in different circles who are very intuitive I had two separate friends said you should do Reiki. I said I have no idea what that is, but great, just brush it off. And I think it popped in a couple other times. I'm like, oh, there's that word Reiki again. And finally it was actually a new patient at my office. She had tinny aversa color, so it was pretty simple, straightforward visit.

Speaker 3:

but I looked at her occupation and I said hey, it says you're a Reiki master.

Speaker 4:

I'm like what is that and how do I learn it? So she told me a little bit about it and said oh there's. You know, if you want to learn, there's a really great teacher locally here in Santa Rosa, daily Little. And so I went and I looked as like, oh, there's a workshop in two weeks. Okay, I can do it, I'll sign up for it. I didn't even bother reading about it or looking into it, and so I showed up to class and I love doing this. I'm very curious and I'll just try anything. You know that's legal.

Speaker 3:

Yes, yes, you sound like me. Yes, yes, exactly, I have my boundaries.

Speaker 4:

But you know, I'm like, why not? You know, reiki class? And I thought it was really interesting. I just it was such a different way of thinking about wellness and healing and you know, her whole thing was that you're just a vessel to, not about you. And that blew my mind because I was like, as a physician, it's like, oh my God, it is about me, it's my, it's my duty, it's my job. I have to fix this person. And this was, you know, her concept was the more you're just relaxed and not invested in it, the more happens.

Speaker 4:

And that just completely I didn't get it you know and I'm learning to, to understand the process, but I loved it and I didn't actually feel very much. You know, there are people that were very intuitive. They were seeing colors, they were feeling the energy and I was like, oh, I'm relaxed, this is good. But when I was doing we were doing practice on each other and I was hovering my hands over someone, the teacher said, wow, there's so much energy pouring out of your hands. And I looked at my hands. I was like, I don't know what you're talking about, but, okay, I'll go with it. And so that was my Reiki one class, and I started just practicing because I found it really calming for myself. So and I like helping others so it was great. It's like, oh, you're, you know you're, you have a headache or you're stressed Like, come here, let me, let me try this Reiki thing. I just learned and I found myself really calm. The other person really loved it, and so that that kept going. And then what happened was that I realized that it was divine timing. So I learned Reiki one in April of 2017.

Speaker 4:

And then, october of 2017, I'm in Santa Rosa. It was the Tubbs fire and I was in an area that was just completely devastated by the fire. I lost my house. I lost every single item I owned, except for the clothing on my body. I got my dogs and my husband and my purse, and that was it. And so it was traumatic, to say the least, and not just the individual trauma, but the trauma of this entire community, I mean, burnt to ashes. People lost their home, people lost their lives, their loved ones, their businesses, and so my world was completely turned upside down.

Speaker 4:

And then here's where Reiki came in again was it was the first week after the fires. I mean just trying to find a place to sleep, a place to eat.

Speaker 3:

I mean basics, right, yeah bottom of my heart, I was like my friends like what do you mean?

Speaker 4:

right now? I'm like, do you have nail clippers? Like my nails were too long and I didn't have nail clippers, so she got me nail clippers and the same friend I am gifted me a session with this other woman. We both knew for Reiki.

Speaker 4:

And so I went and I had not been sleeping I mean just the most shock and trauma and frozen you know I could be and so I was on the table and she started doing some Reiki and I told her I was like you know, if you have any messages of guidance, I knew she was intuitive and psychic. I was like I just need anything right. And so she kind of paused, hesitated, and she said you know, 10 years ago, did you ever lose yourself? And I looked at her, I said what do you mean by losing yourself? And she said have you ever been suicidal? And I said yes, actually around 10 years ago, around time of internship, I was suicidal. And she said well, what I'm hearing now is that 10 years ago you had everything and you lost yourself. And now you've lost everything but you have yourself, and it still kind of brings tears to my eyes too.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, it was a lightning bolt and I literally felt this like coming in through me and it was like at that moment because I have all the work I'd done from that period, so that I called. That was the first fire. That was like the burning of myself, that was, I lost all of myself and I had to raise myself from the ground up, right, and, you know, dove into that healing process and then, you know, 10 years later, my whole home, my community's, burnt to the ground. But I realized I had myself, I'd gotten to a place where I understood what that was. And even though the journey has not been easy and it's still, you know, ongoing, you know, four years later, I knew that I could, you know, get through this. And the universe has sent out, you know, support. And it's funny, actually, it was right after the Reiki class, about a month later, I had already signed up for a Reiki level two and I wasn't going to do it Before the fire, oh my.

Speaker 4:

God, I'm in this like frazzled state and people say that a lot. They're like you know, things have come up. I'm not ready to be spiritual and grounded. I'm like that is the time to do these classes. And I tell people I've cried at every single Reiki class I've taken and actually some I've taught, because it's just such an opening and it's, you know, to have that space where you know Reiki's not about fixing you, it's not giving you advice, it's not, it's just letting you be and just with just holding the space and this intention for everyone's wellbeing. And that's how it's been such a powerful practice for me and to the point where I want to, you know, share about it. So that's a very personal story that I've only recently began sharing.

Speaker 4:

But I realized just, you know for any listeners out there for you. You know, we I think a lot of us have these moments, and I think it's normalizing these conversations that we can share these pretty magical experiences that change our lives. So Absolutely.

Speaker 3:

Thank you so much, judith, for sharing that, because I was just, it was so touched by your story. It just it really moved me. It brings me to tears again too, and suicide is the 10th most common cause of death in this country. It is something that I think is something that that is so, so common but not discussed Suicidal ideation and I I want to provide resources such as Reiki to those of us who are struggling, because I think it's something that, if we're willing to talk about it, we can open each other's hearts to providing these resources. I would love to hear because I know you've had some pretty powerful examples in your practice. There's one in particular about Well, let me just open it up to you Can you tell us about some of the experiences in your practice of dermatology where bringing the practice of Reiki has been helpful?

Speaker 4:

Yeah. So there's always one that comes to mind and is what really kind of launched me into being more open to Reiki. Because as a physician, I totally understand the need for evidence-based medicine and evidence-based practices and I understand skeptics and I am one too. So after I took my Reiki class, I'd just been practicing on just kind of friends and some colleagues and just very private about it, Like, oh, this is just this little fun thing and so closet.

Speaker 4:

Reiki-est yes exactly, and then it was. I think it was just about two months after I took Reiki one. I was working with a patient who was there for a melanoma excision and I already knew she already told me she's high anxiety. I had given her Ativan, premedicated her beforehand, I even was trying to speak in my calmest voice possible and just to talk her through breathing, but she was just having a complete anxiety attack and out of desperation I just blurted out have you heard of Reiki? I was just grasping at straws and so she's like oh yeah, my sister does Reiki right. Perks of being in Sonoma.

Speaker 3:

County.

Speaker 4:

And so I said well, you know, I just learned Reiki and could I just offer you a little bit of Reiki? And I was already gloved in and so it's great, right, you don't have to touch. So I just like hovered, my medical system was across the way and she just transformed in front of me, in front of the table and I will actually read her Yelp review because I'll let her speak about it and the ironic thing is that she misspelled my name.

Speaker 3:

She wrote Dr Wong, but I'll change it to Dr Wong, but it's there on.

Speaker 4:

Yelp. So she wrote. Dr Hong is above and beyond any MD I have ever been treated by. First, she found, biopsied and verified a melanoma on my back. Then, when I arrived to have her remove it, I was a mess, totally anxious, scared, shaking and crying. Dr Hong is clearly much more than a great MD she's a kind, caring and amazing energy healer. When Dr Hong put her hands on my back near the site to be removed, my whole body stopped shaking. I became immediately calm and as she was working on me, I became even more calm. I know it's because of her healing energy and presence. By the end of the surgery, I felt completely peaceful in my body. The whole experience was quite spiritual for me. Dr Hong indeed gave me a healing on mind, body and soul levels. Oh, and I have the dates from so June of 2017 and I took Reiki April of 2017.

Speaker 4:

So that is one of the most singular moments of this Reiki journey where I was like what, what just happened? And it made me realize, okay, I need to keep going with this. I don't know what it is, I don't know what happened In a way I still don't but this is really fascinating. And how wonderful that I can just hover my hand, do nothing, and we can shift this whole. And we both had this spiritual experience right there. Yeah, clinic, yes, so, so, yeah, so that was one of my most powerful ones. And I'm still not someone I don't really bring in Reiki as a clinical practice into, because I really use it kind of for myself and just to help with staff sometimes or just to kind of manage energy. But I it's been rare I actually do Reiki in the clinic, but that was one time where I did. And then the other fun one I actually just saw her back recently is a patient where same thing, her anxiety I had to do a biopsy, a shaped biopsy.

Speaker 4:

She was panicking. I was trying to help her out and talk and finally I was like, oh well, there was that Reiki time. I did Okay. So I was like, okay, oh, have you heard of Reiki? And fortunately she did, and so I did a little Reiki and then I went ahead and did the procedure and it went great.

Speaker 4:

And the next time she came back six months later and, actually interesting, it turned out to be a melanoma that I biopsied. So when she came back another time she said Dr Hong, you changed my life what? And she's like my needle phobia is gone. And I said what she's like? Yeah, it's gone, it's this lifelong phobia. And I was like, okay, and of course I'm like okay.

Speaker 4:

Well, maybe the explanation was I put her in a very calm state and just by offering her something, even if Reiki doesn't exist, but me just being present with her, willing to try something out of the box, shifted something in her synapses and the link to the amygdala, fear, reaction. But whatever, if that's it, if that's all. It was a placebo. Fantastic and that's the fun thing is the unexpected, it's the magic, I call it. It's like the magic of medicine and or magic of life and the surprises and the mystery and the. I always, when I was little, like, I love, like the magical realms and the sparkly, the unicorns, the, and so Reiki has that for me. It fills that little, that childhood wonderment, childhood joy of like, ooh, what if there is magic in the world?

Speaker 3:

So yes, and I think we create our magic and I think that, like you said earlier with and you taught this in the class that Reiki is not about us, the practitioner, healing the patient. It's allowing the patient to heal themselves. It's creating a calm place and I think of it as basically holding somebody in meditation and love together and allowing them to come to that calm place. And, like you said, if you want to get into the science of it, rewiring things to calm down the amygdala right or Fright or Flight Fear Center, and that can lead us into talking a little bit about some of the science because, like you were saying, you know, as physicians, we want the data, we want the numbers, and there have been a number of studies that are placebo controlled, that have found some benefit to Reiki. Can you talk a little bit about those?

Speaker 4:

Yeah, absolutely, and you know, and for those of you who kind of want more information, you're always welcome to reach out to me, because I've compiled some of it and I don't have it by memory, so I'm going to be looking at my notes. But one website I really recommend is the Center for Reiki Research, and this is a group of Reiki practitioners, scientists, whose goal is really compiling all the studies that have been done on Reiki, and then they have this process called the Touchstone Process, where they actually do these summaries. And so I was really excited because you know, I, you know I like looking at some of the research, but for me it's such like a like a spiritual experiential practice, but I know some people that's really important, and so this is a really great resource for that. And then another good book is called Reiki and Clinical Practice, a Science-Based Guide by Ann Baldwin, and she also does a kind of summary of all the different studies. And you know she has an interesting journey because she's also a scientist too, and there was a lab assistant that did Reiki and she had a profound experience, and so she shifted her studies to studying Reiki.

Speaker 4:

But let me see there's also McManus 2017 has a very good review about placebo-controlled Reiki trials. So this is the cool thing there are actually quite a lot of placebo-controlled, because of course you're like, oh, someone's there, they're putting their hands on you, like that's healing in and of itself. But in the placebo-controlled trials they had people who were not Reiki practitioners and they had them like actors or nurses and they trained them. This is where you put your hands or this is how you mimic, and so you're actually they got sham Reiki and so I know that's always very important to have that control aspect. And there are different studies, but some of them have showed a decrease in heart rate in high blood pressure sorry, not heart rate, blood pressure in hypertensive patients. There was a study about burnt out healthcare professionals that showed increased heart rate variability. We don't relate to that at all. Right, health care professionals burnt out what are you talking about?

Speaker 3:

I love pathology. I have to say I feel very fortunate to be a pathologist.

Speaker 4:

And I'm a dermatologist. Yes, we're so grateful for all you primary care frontline workers. I mean just so much respect for all our colleagues, our physician colleagues, our healthcare colleagues, every one out there who's doing what they can. And then there, let me see, there were also some decrease in pain, depression and anxiety in a group of chronically ill patients. And then there were studies that show no effect too. So there was a study on fibromyalgia no difference in pain. There was a study on the amount of anesthesia needed for pediatric patients, I believe, getting dental procedure no difference.

Speaker 4:

So I am not here to say, gosh, rakey's gonna cure everything that's out there, because it's not. And actually that's not the point of it at all. As I've learned, it's a really meditative, compassion, mindfulness practice, and the healing is a byproduct. That's not up to us. It's that person's own journey, it's their own connection with the spirit divine, whatever you call it God. They're higher selves, and so that's how I viewed it and it's a. I love it as a compassion practice, because you can do self Rakey, you can do Rakey for others, you can do Rakey for the planet, you can do Rakey for something going on at a distance, you can send Rakey ahead of time for something. I sent Rakey to this podcast because I was like, oh, my gosh, I was so nervous about this.

Speaker 4:

Like okay, well, I'm talking about Rakey, I should just do my own practice and send it, rakey and I asked for Rakey friends to send you know, and so it's kind of fun. It's prayer, it's intention, it's something that's been part of human. You know, just being human right like how, how much has has spiritual practice or prayer hands-on healing, you know so.

Speaker 3:

That's the community aspect, and you have a, you have a Facebook group, I think. If can you tell us a little bit about that, is that for students?

Speaker 4:

or um, no, it's, it's for anyone interested. It kind of started out as the place to gather you know people I was teaching, but it's open. It's called a wishing wellness way Reiki, and that's. You can just find it on Facebook or you can find me, judith Hong, and you know, message me and I can always add you and and that's a fun thing. And I realized one of the most fun things about teaching Reiki is the cool people I get to Meet and then they learn Reiki and then I can ask them to send me some Reiki.

Speaker 4:

I need help, selfish, you motive, but no, it's, it's just really great community and and and then people bring in such a different gifts. You know there's other people who do other forms of energy healing, like I've. You know healing touch or qigong, or you know yoga practices, and so we have all these different ways of connecting to those, those parts of us and that connection to spirit. So Reiki's just one, you know, example of that. But it doesn't have to be just that. I always tell people just go with what Resonates and what's fun, right, don't pursue something if it's not enjoyable. If you know if and I tell my students that, like anything here I'm teaching that doesn't resonate, just let it go. But if there's something that you really connect to, like, you really like the hands on the self, great, you know the self Reiki. Or you like visualizing the light, wonderful, you know other things, you know let it go.

Speaker 4:

I'm not, I don't. I want everyone to just explore themselves, and and the analogy I use is you know, I'll show you a brush and here's the blank canvas, is here's how you dip the brush and paint and paint. But I don't want you to paint like me, I want you to do your own art style, whatever you bring in. And so with Reiki, I say, if you already do yoga, just bring in Reiki into your yoga practice. If you cook, you love cooking, send Reiki to your ingredients, to your food, and so that's where it's like a mindfulness practice of it's my little touchstone, for you know, being mindful about what I'm doing, what I'm experiencing, and I am definitely not there most of the time and it's a little early on.

Speaker 4:

Yes, I'm quite human but it's helped me so much, just with every you know part of my life. Just, you know, reiki and the. The other thing I do want to share that rate my animal Reiki teacher, kathleen Prasad, taught me is that Reiki is about our inner light, seeing another person's inner light. So there's a sense that we all have our light and sometimes it gets covered up, it's foggy, it's misty, there's mud on it. Right, life happens and we feel like we have no light, but it's there, and then if you can see other people's light and look for that, that's. I'll share a story about that one. So I had a metastatic melanoma patient who was, just, you know, not happy with the health care system, not happy with you know a lot of what was happening in general, of course, and and he was difficult energetically, very difficult for me and I would Kind of dread our visits because it was hard for me. I'm very sensitive and someone's not happy or you know, in a in a kind of angry, frustrated place that it impacts me. So I just took this animal Reiki class. She said, you know, my light sees your light. I was like, okay, all right, that's my practice for this week. My light, I'm seeing his light, I'm seeing his light, I'm seeing his light, I'm seeing his light. So I go in and we're going about our visit and somehow I think I just asked about his hobbies, right? I'm like, okay, I'm not seeing a sick patient, I'm seeing who is. Who is he like? What is he interested in? And he says hockey. And so I was like hockey, oh my god, I played hockey, you know, and I played roller hockey, I played ice hockey, like I love hockey, and he just lit up right and we just we talked about hockey, I asked about what position he played and anyway, so, and it just, it just shifts right.

Speaker 4:

And so the next time he comes in, he hands me this thing wrapped in this black scarf, and he's like here you go. And I said oh, what is it? He's like well, it's a gift. And he said I was out with my brother and I said I want to buy my doctor a gift. And he's like oh, like which doctor? And your oncologist? He's like no, my dermatologist. She's, she's one of the most important doctors you know. So I opened the gift and we're in Santa Rosa, which is, you know, charles Schultz and Snoopy and all that, and it was Snoopy playing hockey with an H and he said the H is for hockey and the H is for Hong, and I had to hold myself from just you know Bali, and it still sits on my desk and and that's like my little reminder of if we can just do those little shifts.

Speaker 4:

You know, instead of dreading to see that patient that you know, yes, time and again they've been difficult, if we can, okay, where, where's their light? You know where's their light and ask I asked for help, like you know Reiki, for helping me connect to this person. And and you know what's? I realize what's kind of fun about being a clinical physician is that it's a great playground to try these practices. So, as you learn different practices you know compassion practices, loving, kindness, reiki, grounding just try it out in your clinic and and you'll, you'll get feedback. You'll get feedback like, oh, this, this is something that works well for me, or no, didn't really feel that, but that shifted my. My practice is a. You know I, any patients are listening.

Speaker 3:

I hope they don't feel like they're a little out of compassion and, you know, wanting to help you know others be as good of a physician as I can, so well, I really benefited from taking your class and you know I'm a pathologist, so I also will be using Reiki only probably on myself and and family members. But I would love for our listeners to be able to find your class, and you said that people can find you on Facebook. They can find you on Facebook and you do to Hong hong, or do you have a website that you want to let people know about?

Speaker 4:

you. I don't, but I know that is next, so. But at this point you could actually I do have a separate email account. So that's wishing wellness at gmailcom and so, and then I guess what I do develop a website. We could probably tack that on somehow. So thank you for wonderful, wonderful, wonderful.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, and I again, I found it to be such a simple but but powerful technique and I was surprised in the sense that it's something that was only what I think a three hour class, that that just just to get some of the basic fundamentals, that and you know, as you said, you'd only taken Reiki one and already, two months later, we're able to really help a patient in a way that you might not have been able to before taking that class. So it's a pretty simple but powerful and experience that I highly highly recommend it.

Speaker 3:

Anyway thank you so much for sharing your journey. I am so grateful. I think this will be really beneficial to our listeners. Hopefully you weren't meditating when you were driving, but we are just so happy to have you here and please, please, reach out to Judith to find more information.

Speaker 4:

So thank you so much. Thank you, liz. This was wonderful. My first podcast, you did it. Yeah, with you, I'm the better person to walk hand in hand through.

Speaker 3:

Yes, thank you, we'll jump together.

Speaker 4:

Take care.

Speaker 2:

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